What about babies who are still inside their mother? Do they have a right to choose to live?
Excellent question. Those that claim they are pro-choice really seek to eliminate the free-will of those they would like to cancel.
Sea Breeze
JoinedPosts by Sea Breeze
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52
Free Will - Does It or Does It Not Exist?
by truth_b_known inbeing born-in and raised as one of jehovah's witnesses i remember a common theme or phrases used by the watchtower in its theory of why things are the way they are -.
jehovah created humans.
jehovah created humans as free moral agents.
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Sea Breeze
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52
Free Will - Does It or Does It Not Exist?
by truth_b_known inbeing born-in and raised as one of jehovah's witnesses i remember a common theme or phrases used by the watchtower in its theory of why things are the way they are -.
jehovah created humans.
jehovah created humans as free moral agents.
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Sea Breeze
There needs to be an agreement on what the terminology means.
Free Will doesn't mean that we are without influences, temptations, predispositions, context, etc. The fact that we can choose in spite of (as well as because of) such things is only further evidence of free will.
Furthermore, if we choose not to exercise our free-will, that is an expression of free will as well.... just as making excuses is also a choice and an act of free-will.
Animals exhibit some volition, but are generally void of moral choices. We are capable of making moral choices whether we choose to admit it, or choose to engage in it or not.
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52
Free Will - Does It or Does It Not Exist?
by truth_b_known inbeing born-in and raised as one of jehovah's witnesses i remember a common theme or phrases used by the watchtower in its theory of why things are the way they are -.
jehovah created humans.
jehovah created humans as free moral agents.
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Sea Breeze
Have you ever truly loved someone? If so, you have proof of free will. You could have chosen not to. But you did. Love is evidence of free will. It cannot be programmed, coerced or manufactured. Love is freedoms' greatest expression.
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162
A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.
by Fisherman inobviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.
and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.
in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.
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Sea Breeze
All christians going to heaven is nonsensical as I have unquestionably established.
Fisherman,
Aren't you even a little bit worried about preaching a gospel that was unknown to the apostles?
CHRISTIAN CITIZENSHIP IS IN HEAVEN. The earth will be populated by the surviving nations after the GT.
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33
Do you think the Watchtower is right about about eternal punishment of the wicked?
by Vanderhoven7 inatheists believe death is the end of personal existence.
but for those who believe there is life after death, what do you think is the nature of final punishment?
in other words do you agree with the atheists and the watchtower society or is there eternal ongoing conscious punishment awaiting the wicked.
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Sea Breeze
Job is probably the oldest book in the bible. In it, Job definitely had a hope in an afterlife".
Almost overnight, Job lost everything — his family, his wealth, his health, even his friends. In the midst of it all, he felt he might be dying, but instead of shrinking back from death, he welcomed it. Why? Not only because he knew it would bring an end to his sufferings, but also because he knew that if he died he would go to be with God. (Job 19:)
For I know that my Redeemer lives,
and at the last he will stand upon the earth.
26 And after my skin has been thus destroyed,
yet in my flesh I shall see God,Other references:
Isaiah 66:24
However, there are two passages in the Old Testament that give us a glimpse of the punishment that will come upon the wicked in the end times. The first is Isaiah 66:24: “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
The 65th and 66th chapters of Isaiah discuss the new heavens and new earth, and how God will bring all the nations to Jerusalem. However, at the end of chapter 66, God says of those who had rebelled against him that their worms will not die, and the fire that burns them will never be quenched. This is consistent with the imagery that is used in the New Testament (click here).
This passage reflects the condition of those who are not a part of the new heavens and new earth. The implication is that these are the people who will be banished and punished by God and not be given a place among those in heaven.
Daniel 12:1-3
The second passage is Daniel 12:1-3. “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.”
There are some very interesting things about these verses. First, they come after 11:36-45 which is speaking about the Antichrist. Second, the people whose names are found in the book are delivered. This sounds a lot like the Book of Life that is described in the book of Revelation. Third, this is the only place in the Old Testament that speaks about both the righteous and the wicked having a bodily resurrection. And fourth, the righteous will be given eternal life while the wicked will be given eternal shame and contempt.
This is very similar to what Jesus teaches in Matthew 25:46 where the righteous receive eternal life and the wicked receive eternal punishment. Some like to argue that eternal punishment does not last forever, but if hell is not eternal, then heaven will not be eternal either (click here for more on that topic). Scholar Daniel Block says about Daniel 12:1-3:
“Life [referring to eternal life] in this context means the recovery of that for which humankind was created in the beginning – free and open fellowship with God and a restoration of all the privileges and responsibilities involved with being the image of God, namely, once more governing the world as God’s representative and deputy. The fate of the wicked is the opposite. They are sentenced to perpetual disgrace…and shame…The former expression refers to the taunts and reviling of all who pass by, the latter to the revulsion and loathing that passers-by feel toward the sight. This interpretation of this rare word is confirmed by Isaiah 66:24 [our first passage above], the only other occurrence of [the Hebrew word for shame]. It describes the disposition one has toward the putrid and malodorous carcass of a dead animal infested with maggots and in an advanced stage of decay.”[5]
Conclusion
The Old Testament does not give us a lot of information about hell. However, the passages in Isaiah and Daniel do give us details that are consistent with the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament. Hell is eternal punishment for those who reject the one true God.
Give the average man a guarantee that there is no hell, and you will tickle him in the right place. Tell him that the heathen are not lost, and it meets his heartiest approval. Show him that the worst of the very wicked need expect only non-existence after death, and he is "with you."
The average person will defend such an easy-going, "common sense," satisfying religion, and will voluntarily subscribe and further this "comforting" view without even going to a KH.
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Sea Breeze
SB what argument should I win because what you support doesn't make sense! Why God will worship to Himself, pray to Himself and subject to Himself? Jehovah never called Jesus My God, whereas Jesus call His Father " My God".
You already know the answer to this question. It was explained to you with many scriptural references to you on page 2 of this thread. The reason is because Jesus is a Tri-Partite being just like you or me.
You and every other JW continually try to frame this topic as an either or scenario. But, it is not an either or scenario, it is a both scenario. Regardless of the countless times that the Bible and Christians present a portrait of Jesus as BOTH God and Man, JW's are trained to ignore this and just keep on arguing a point that no Christian has a problem with.
Jesus, the son of Mary is just as human as you or I. As such, it is appropriate for Jesus to pray to God. If the body is all there is to Jesus, then that would be the end of the discussion....Jesus is not God - and the bible contradicts itself.
However the WT has taught a view that is foreign to the bible. It is a heresy.... one that effects other biblical doctrines.
God has explained how we are made. We are constituted of three parts - soul body & spirit.
The bible writers assume that the reader understands that fact. The view that we are only a body and that the soul is just our bad breath and your spirit is simply electricity - is a belief that is found in the modern worldview of Materialistic Naturalism, not the bible. Several false philosophies of the 18th and 19th centuries laid the groundwork in which Materialism could later take root and grow.
The WT bought into this and adopts an unbiblical materialistic belief on the nature of man.
They deny that we ourselves are anything other than a body when it comes to personhood.. Yet God says that, like him, we are a tri-partite being:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.This is illustrated extensively throughout scripture: In language, personal pronouns denote personhood. He, she, I, they, etc. The bible assumes that the reader understands this 3rd grade grammar. For example:
Rev. 6 - I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
See all the personal pronouns? They are disembodied PERSONS who can think, speak, remember, complain and be comforted.
The bible is full of examples like this:
1Co_5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early
These should suffice to show that in the bible your body, soul and spirit are all characterized as YOU, AND NOT AN IT like the WT tries to present.
This understanding that the WT has told you to reject clears up why you are having such a "problem". Jesus' body is the son of Mary, making him fully man. The spirit of Jesus was God himself. "God is a spirit". God is indivisible being omnipresent So, Jesus is fully God as well.
This is why the bible calls him God's only-begotten (begotten means out of his essence) son. Angels were created but Jesus came out from the essence of the Father. This was a onetime, single solitary never-to-be-repeated event for all eternity - only-begotten.
The bible teaches that Jesus is both God and Man at the same time.
This chart illustrates how Jesus is both fully Man and fully God:
I am not saying that you have to believe any of this. But, if you continue to reject this clear biblical teaching on the nature of man, you must logically conclude that Jesus was a mad man. You certainly cannot conclude that Jesus was any sort of a good person. Good people don't run around saying they are God.
Perhaps no better example of this biblical truth is the entire exchange in John 8 where Jesus switches back and forth in one conversation from speaking as God to speaking as a man.
John 8: 24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25Then said they unto him, Who art thou?
And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning..... 27They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
Wow! If a person doesn't believe that Jesus is Jehovah, they will die in their sins! But, then almost right away Jesus changes from speaking as God, to speaking as a man:
"And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him."
The Pharisees are shocked at this exchange and conclude he has a demon because he speaks as BOTH a man and as God. Then Jesus again changes from talking as a man with a beginning to God with no beginning and who is the great I AM.
"Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me....Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
There are many more examples of Jesus speaking as a man AND as God in this exchange recorded in John 8. This is because he is.
None of this is of any importance to you because the bible is a closed book to you just as the WT has taught you. The WT views the bible as belonging only to them and as such they can pick and choose which scriptures to cite in support of their lies and which ones to ignore.... just as you do. Without any embarrassment I might add.
It is shocking to people when they get a grasp of the depth of ignorance and bondage that JW's are in when they subject themselves mentally to such hucksters.These hucksters speak as God and view their proclamations as the bible itself!
Watchtower December 15, 2008, pg. 28 – “Our
coming to know „the truth‟ - the entire body of
Christian teachings that has become part of the
Bible - and adhering to it are essential for our
salvation”.
No one would have ever believed that human ignorance could sink so far as to accept the illogical and blasphemous decrees of 8 biblically illiterate obese fat men who imagine themselves to be the Savior of the world.
Yet, talk to any JW and you will soon have proof of what is possible.
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Sea Breeze
"I am Jehovah, and there is none else; besides me there is no God. I will gird thee, though thou hast not known me; that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me: I am Jehovah, and there is none else."
Isaiah 45:5-6GB,
There you go again trying to win an argument that Christians don't make. It is the WT that accuses Christians of not recognizing that Jehovah is God. It is a lying false accusation and you know it. Just as the Apostle John did, we worship the father as we worship the Son because they are one and the same. They share the same essence in spirit. God is a spirit. A person has to shut off part of their brain or at least throw away much of the bible to believe the uneducated ignorant WT teachers.
In the scriptures you quote, John 12 makes it clear that Isaiah was talking about JESUS!
But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him [Jesus]
42Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
In Isaiah, Jehovah declares that he will not give his praise to another. That is because Jehovah is Jesus:
Is. 42: 8
I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another
Yet, Jesus is declared to be the Lord of Glory in the NT:
We declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (1 Corinthians 2:7-8 NIV)
You are in darkness GB because you refuse to believe scripture. You simply are not willing to pay the price of belief:
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Jesus is the light of Jehovah whom you claim you serve even though you listen to teachers that tell you that the bible doesn't apply to you. This is why you keep trying to win an argument that no one is trying to make. You take it as truth what the WT says about Christians: that they don't worship Jehovah. It is insanity.
Hebrews 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
John 11:40 - Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
You cannot see the glory of Jehovah in Jesus because you don't believe him.
2 Corinthians 4:4-6 - in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Do you see why you will never win an argument with a Christian? The scriptures don't apply to you, just as I quoted to you the official WT teaching on this. You follow a different bible. It is a bible where you can pick and choose which scripture to quote and which one to ignore .... and not feel the slightest bit of embarrassment over it.
The WT makes it clear that the word of God doesn't belong to you, and so it doesn't.
This is the bible that your WT masters have given you:
Watchtower December 15, 2008, pg. 28 – “Our
coming to know „the truth‟ - the entire body of
Christian teachings that has become part of the
Bible - and adhering to it are essential for our
salvation”.
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An introduction
by deenolikeszep inhello my name is deeno and i’m so happy to have found a place like this, hopefully i can make some friends here :3. anyways idk if my profile updated but a little about me i’m 16 but my 17th bday is on the 29th aaaand i was disfellowshipped sometime in september or october 2021. as i’m a minor i’m still in my dads home and so i am forced to go to meetings and convention n shit so that’s fun but hey could be worse lol.
but yeah that’s it as far as that goes, oh and i suppose i should mention my pronouns are he/they.
that should do it for now, thanks for reading if you made it this far n have a good day/night :3!
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Sea Breeze
Welcome Deeno!
Do you have any close relatives that are not JW? -
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JW's are the SAME as other Christians....
by BoogerMan in...they condemn/attack those whose beliefs/opinions/interpretations of scriptures differ from theirs.. various scriptures reveal to christians that the judging of mankind will be done by christ jesus: .
john 5:22,28,29, acts 10:42, acts 17:31, romans 14:9, 2 cor.
5:10, 2 tim.
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Sea Breeze
Everyone judges, it is necessary for survival. We are commanded to do it. But, there is a way to do it.
Matthew 7:2
For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
John 7:24
Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
The word of God is the standard of judgment.
Which Christian denomination do you think is 100% correct
There are hundreds of thousands of independent Baptist churches, bible churches, non-denominational, Nazarene and others that have no affiliation with any governing board, no matter how easy going they are. They are locally run and the members can fire the pastor if he gets weird on them. Everybody sings the same Christian songs.
Differences are minor, probably less that a half dozen little issues that have nothing to do with Salvation.
The WT likes to make it out that there are thousands of different Christian religions. It is just not true. Here are some of the flavors that believers tend to flock together around.
Millennial vs Amillennial
Calvinism vs. Arminianism
Expository preaching vs. Illustrative
Eternal Security
Relaxed dress vs. business casual
Gifts of the Spirit
The Church is united in salvation under one Leader. Yet, there is much freedom in Christ for believers. I believe the King approves of all the various locally run churches, and probably a great many of the denominational ones as well, because it limits the damage done when one occasionally apostatizes.
It is the same reason that the Lord approves of nation states. When one state goes rogue, the evil is contained.
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Sea Breeze
An oldie but goodie!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTNJ3_wxPtU&ab_channel=OutWithNewInWithOld
